Curse

Sekkira · May 19, 2005, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Or maybe they should have stopped whining about it, kept him on the team and gone for another round to win another one.

Marus Varrus · May 19, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

The question is if one of them had gotten the drop would they have rerolled to give the two addon players a chance for it. I believe their actions prove they would not have done that. The lesson here is if your guild is going in for the sig mainly a little message before entering the tombs is a small price to pay. From his post its sounds like if they had maintained a little decorum and asked politely he would have probably given to them outright anyway.

Auntie I · May 19, 2005, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiC

I have an interesting scenario for you guys.

Earlier tonight I made it to the HoH for the second time, with a fairly skilled, but rather immature guild (lots of inuendo and trash talking) making up the bulk of the team. We managed to win the hall the first time, and I was fortunate enough to get the sigil drop.

Now, after the game, some of the people from this guild insisted that we all roll to see who gets the sigil - which in itself baffled me, because the sigil dropping is random to begin with. This is where the shadyness began.

The rules of this roll were that each individual player would roll to 100, and the one closest to that would get the sigil. The problem was, at least in my eyes, that 6 out of the 8 people on the team were on the same guild, and each had their own shot at the sigil. This clearly stacked the odds against me and the other guy, and it just seems like an all-around scam. I should emphaize that there was no mention of this procedure prior to Hall of Heroes, or prior to the game at all really. It just kinda came up out of nowhere, and had I known prior, I would have never played with these guys.

After a long winded debate (in which I heard some of the most ridiculus excuses like, the game's randomization really isn't random or something), I decided that I would hold onto the sigil and ask around if this was common practice (which, from previous experience and those who I've already talked to, say it isn't).

The only reason I'm going out of my way to find out is because I firmly believe in fair play, and in the off chance this actually is common, then I will go ahead and do the right thing, despite the fact that I was arguing with a bunch of 9 year olds.

I would appreciate any input that you guys have, especially if you've previously won the sigil in the HoH.

I've read your post and I think that yes they were trying to scam you. It's not really nice, and I suspect that if they had asked you nicely and offered a trade that they could have gotten it for a lot less than Sigils are currently trading for.
I've read this whole thread and a lot of people are discussing the morality of the situation. Morally the 6 guildmates didn't have a leg to stand on. They have no claim on anything that drops for you, just as you have no claim on anything that drops for them.
Some people have stated that you should have give them the sigil because you didn't need it. On re-reading your post it is clear that you didn't state either way whether you were in a guild (that perhaps could use the sigil) or not. Your "need" for the sigil is irrelevent to whether or not they were trying to scam you. Just not really an issue here.
Your question was whether rolling for the sigil is an accepted practice or scam. I vote "SCAM"

Mountain Man · May 19, 2005, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnCoke

Simply put, if it was somebody with a different set of morals...

Moral relativism is a useless philosophy and has no value in a discussion such as this. Let's call it "preference" with the understanding that nobody's preference is superior.

If I was in this situation and they had asked if we could roll for it (they collectively get six chances at my sigil while I only get one? As if!), I would have laughed at them and told them to take a hike. If, on the other hand, they had simply asked for it without pretense or offered me a fair trade then I would have been more willing to listen. That is my preference, and I stand by it.

Auntie I · May 19, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

Moral relativism is a useless philosophy and has no value in a discussion such as this. Let's call it "preference" with the understanding that nobody's preference is superior.

If I was in this situation and they had asked if we could roll for it (they collectively get six chances at my sigil while I only get one? As if!), I would have laughed at them and told them to take a hike. If, on the other hand, they had simply asked for it without pretense or offered me a fair trade then I would have been more willing to listen. That is my preference, and I stand by it.

I agree!

Mountain Man · May 19, 2005, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harlas Kije

How about the 6 guild members in the group who never said anything at all about a sigil drop--either going to them or rolling dice until AFTER it was dropped?

And how much do you want to bet there would have been no talk of dice-rolling if the sigil had dropped with their name on it?

JohnCoke · May 19, 2005, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

Moral relativism is a useless philosophy and has no value in a discussion such as this. Let's call it "preference" with the understanding that nobody's preference is superior.

If I was in this situation and they had asked if we could roll for it (they collectively get six chances at my sigil while I only get one? As if!), I would have laughed at them and told them to take a hike. If, on the other hand, they had simply asked for it without pretense or offered me a fair trade then I would have been more willing to listen. That is my preference, and I stand by it.

Ahhh but nonetheless your "preference" as you so well put it, are just a result of your moral justificiations. Just so you don't feel bad there isn't one decision you make that doesn't involve morals. It's a broad term thats why I used it, not a philosophy as you seem to think. Maybe your reffering to Kantism or Utilitarianism? Either which I'd be more than obliged so serve you with. It's an issue of morals. Period.

Never said my morals we're better than yours, but they are in "my" perspective. Someone said something about them mentioning the sigil drop beforehand. They might have. He may have not noticed it in chat, or he's just not mentioning it, can't take one persons story without vindicative proof. Or they may never have. Doesn't matter, told you what "I" would do based on my moral system.... the rest of you I see as pathetic and "low" that's just how "my" personal view of you is. Not saying it's justified, just how I judged you by your statements

TiC · May 19, 2005, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnCoke

If I was the guy who plays a few rounds for fun as TiC so blatantly put it.... then what the hell is the problem with giving them the sigil?

Doing so at this point I think would only promote that their behavior was acceptable. In gaming, as in life, you are not rewarded for acting like a complete fool, and that's exactly how they were acting last night.

My main intent for creating this thread was to make sure there there wasn't some sort of unwritten protocol for this kind of thing that I was unaware of. As you can tell, I don't exactly win sigils often, despite the ridiculus amount of time I sometimes spend in the tombs.

Once again, had the situation been approached differently by the guild, then I would be much more willing to make some sort of deal, or just hand the thing over altogether. Unfortunately, since that wasn't the case, I can think of a handful of better things to do with it.

EDIT: I should also mention that they told me they already had a hall, and I guess were just looking to sell the thing.

Ramus · May 19, 2005, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiC

Doing so at this point I think would only promote that their behavior was acceptable. In gaming, as in life, you are not rewarded for acting like a complete fool, and that's exactly how they were acting last night.

My main intent for creating this thread was to make sure there there wasn't some sort of unwritten protocol for this kind of thing that I was unaware of. As you can tell, I don't exactly win sigils often, despite the ridiculus amount of time I sometimes spend in the tombs.

Once again, had the situation been approached differently by the guild, then I would be much more willing to make some sort of deal, or just hand the thing over altogether. Unfortunately, since that wasn't the case, I can think of a handful of better things to do with it.

As I said, do what you like with it. Wether you keep it or not is not the case, neither way is wrong. It is a matter of morals, people have different morals, it is neither good or bad.

jdwoody · May 19, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

All this talk of morality is confusing. Do all you "moral" people honestly believe that if one of the guild members had gotten the sigil they would have called for a roll?

I would ask how you can judge how much effort the person put into the group if you weren't there, but unfortunately I know from real life experiences that people who claim to have higher morals than everyone else are usually the first to judge when they have no clue what they are talking about...

If the 6 guild members were capable of getting the sigil without the others they would have done it. They took a gamble with pretty good odds and it didn't work out. Instead of saying, "congrats, enjoy your new guild hall" or "congrats, you're a good player why don't you join our guild" or "congrats, hey we don't have a sigil can we trade some runes or a weapon for it" they tried to swindle it, and saying someone doesn't have high morals because they don't give in to swindlers is ridiculous.

JohnCoke · May 19, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiC

Doing so at this point I think would only promote that their behavior was acceptable. In gaming, as in life, you are not rewarded for acting like a complete fool, and that's exactly how they were acting last night.

My main intent for creating this thread was to make sure there there wasn't some sort of unwritten protocol for this kind of thing that I was unaware of. As you can tell, I don't exactly win sigils often, despite the ridiculus amount of time I sometimes spend in the tombs.

Once again, had the situation been approached differently by the guild, then I would be much more willing to make some sort of deal, or just hand the thing over altogether. Unfortunately, since that wasn't the case, I can think of a handful of better things to do with it.

Never said it wasn't your choice. And I just want to state this... many guilds are a small group of friends. Their behavior is because they knew each other and we're spending time together. Then when it came to seriousness again... well you saw what happened they probably freaked out that not one of them got the sigil. I think it was wrong what they did, and several pointed out better solutions. You seem intelligent, surely you noticed this was a group of teenagers or immature adults that are probably best buds in real life. But if what you say is true and they didn't make a "normal" offer or beg and plead. Then I'll admit, even I'd be hard pressed to give it to them. But I honestly believe I would. And as for your last statement.. yeh who can't. Screw over some other guy with it, charge 100k or sell it on ebay for $40+.

In response to your edit. Don't care. They took the time and made most of the team and created the team build. Unless you asked them to join you?

JohnCoke · May 19, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdwoody

All this talk of morality is confusing. Do all you "moral" people honestly believe that if one of the guild members had gotten the sigil they would have called for a roll?

I would ask how you can judge how much effort the person put into the group if you weren't there, but unfortunately I know from real life experiences that people who claim to have higher morals than everyone else are usually the first to judge when they have no clue what they are talking about...

If the 6 guild members were capable of getting the sigil without the others they would have done it. They took a gamble with pretty good odds and it didn't work out. Instead of saying, "congrats, enjoy your new guild hall" or "congrats, you're a good player why don't you join our guild" or "congrats, hey we don't have a sigil can we trade some runes or a weapon for it" they tried to swindle it, and saying someone doesn't have high morals because they don't give in to swindlers is ridiculous.

So your response is to punish them for bad morals? How is that justified? Since you weren't nice, you don't get your treat. Wow. And sorry if you feel those that talk about morals are usually the first to judge.. probably right. I judge and am not ashamed to admit it. I judged you by your statement and the moral system you represent. I don't agree with it but that doesn't mean from an outside viewpoint that either one of ours is better. Mine seems better than yours, and to you yours seems better. But to not look at the facts and base your decisions on the friendliness of the team... well it's an emotional response completely. If I like you then you get a treat, if I don't then I'm going to be mean and evil to you. Sounds childish. Admittedly that is way too generalized of statements used... and that emotions are part of the process and I can't deny I have them

But IN a GAME, if 6 players put forth the effort and I was the fill in... then hell yes. They deserve the reward no matter how rude they're to me, after all YOU CAN LEAVE A GAME!

TiC · May 19, 2005, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnCoke

Never said it wasn't your choice. And I just want to state this... many guilds are a small group of friends. Their behavior is because they knew each other and we're spending time together. Then when it came to seriousness again... well you saw what happened they probably freaked out that not one of them got the sigil. I think it was wrong what they did, and several pointed out better solutions. You seem intelligent, surely you noticed this was a group of teenagers or immature adults that are probably best buds in real life. But if what you say is true and they didn't make a "normal" offer or beg and plead. Then I'll admit, even I'd be hard pressed to give it to them. But I honestly believe I would. And as for your last statement.. yeh who can't. Screw over some other guy with it, charge 100k or sell it on ebay for $40+.

Never said that you said it wasn't my choice

I know they were young and immature, that's obviously a given. It's also not an excuse. I now know that what was done on their part was wrong, and again in my opinion, you don't reward someone for that kind of behavior.

The only thing that you've confused me a bit about is this "priority" for the 6 guild members. Everyone put in equal effort, guild and pick-ups alike, and as such, shouldn't everyone have equal opportunity for the sigil? Isn't that the reason A.net made the drop random in the first place?

Sekkira · May 19, 2005, 07:28 PM // 19:28

As I said before, but elaborated:

I would have kept the sigil for myself and told them to go to buggery if they wanted to roll. However, I would have offered to continue on to help win the HoH again so they have another chance at the sigil.

It really is just like every other drop. Should the rest of the team that is a part of their own guild force a roll when you suddenly get a yellow item drop? A dragon sword? A superior rune of vigor? What about a dye or a shell? It's exactly the same thing. You are part of the team, so are they, it was a group effort to get there and the rolls are determined by the computer.

Ramus · May 19, 2005, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdwoody

All this talk of morality is confusing. Do all you "moral" people honestly believe that if one of the guild members had gotten the sigil they would have called for a roll?

It would be a pretty shitty world if everyone thought that way, "Well, I shouldn't save that little girl from getting hit by a car. Because she wouldn't have saved me if she had the chance."

Shiryou Kattami · May 19, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Well damn, if the world is getting to the point where when people act like immature kiddies and scream and whine and try and cheat their way to things AND get defended for it...well heck, it explains a lot of the people I meet in teaching.

You want your shiny - you ask for it NICELY. You say "Damn man, we were really after that sigil, I don't suppose you'd consider selling it?". If that was me, and I was set up with my guild hall I'd say "Sure thing man, I ain't gonna do anything with it." I'd do the same with any Superior Rune of Whatever that I could make use of. I'd scare people in WoW by crafting stuff for them for free because I couldn't use it. If I wasn't set up with my guild hall I'd say "Well...I would man, but I need one for my 20-strong guild, but tell you what, you up for a second round and the Sigil's then yours?"

This is called manners. If some little sod comes up to me in my class and screams 'I WANT MY PLAYTIME' and starts kicking my ankles do you think that I say 'Well sure thing little Johnny, you yelled and screamed and kicked loud enough, here you go." I sure as hell do NOT. Little Johnny gets a one way trip to the headmaster's office and parents on the phone.

Sides, reading the OP's later posts, he states that their guild ALREADY had a guild hall. Why then did they need the sigil? Probably to scam off to some other desperate guild. Excuse me if I don't go and cry a river for their 'loss'.

So it's 'morals' now to give things to people that whine and scream and generally act like selfish little gits who think the world owes them a living? Well damn, I must be the most immoral person around.

jdwoody · May 19, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnCoke

So your response is to punish them for bad morals? How is that justified? Since you weren't nice, you don't get your treat.

Punish? Playing fair and by the rules is punishment? Every person on that team deserved to get a sigil, because they won as a team. If the 6 could have won on their own they would have. You didn't answer my question, "if one of the 6 got the sigil would they have asked for a roll?"

If you want to give away all your gold and all your items in game, that does not make you "better" morally or any other way. The definition of morals is judging good and bad in people's behaviour. By using the word moral in this context you are implying that people who don't give in to swindlers are bad, and because you would comply you are "good".

I say that is BS...

Mountain Man · May 19, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnCoke

Ahhh but nonetheless your "preference" as you so well put it, are just a result of your moral justificiations.

What you describe is ethics. Morals are absolute. There is no such thing as "your set of morals" or "my set of morals". While ethics are derived from morals, they are more fluid, but morals themselves are absolute.

Quote:

Never said my morals we're better than yours, but they are in "my" perspective.

So in other words, you think you have a superior moral sense. Some might even call it arrogance. Hell, I would call it arrogance!

Quote:

Someone said something about them mentioning the sigil drop beforehand. They might have. He may have not noticed it in chat, or he's just not mentioning it, can't take one persons story without vindicative proof. Or they may never have. Doesn't matter, told you what "I" would do based on my moral system....

If you had simply stopped there then I would have no issue with you.

Quote:

the rest of you I see as pathetic and "low" that's just how "my" personal view of you is. Not saying it's justified, just how I judged you by your statements

And this is where you keep getting yourself into trouble. You're not simply telling what you would have done. You take it a step further by insulting us and arrongantly--and illogically--stating that you have a superior moral system (implicite in your characterizing us as "low"). This is unacceptable behavior.

But let's, for a moment, look at this from an unbiased perspective. Would you agree with the following statement: People have a moral right to keep what is rightfully theirs. I assume your answer would be yes, so from a strictly moral point of view, the original poster who did not give up the sigil that was rightfully his (it dropped with his name on it) acted morally. Now ethically there is certainly room for debate. You argue that those who worked hardest for it--in your opinion the guild members--should get the reward, but it is begging the question to say that the guild did work the hardest for it. I have no doubt the player in question worked every bit as hard as any individual guild member, so why should they not get to keep the reward that is, if you'll remember, rightfully theirs? Can a coorporate entity claim greater rights than the individual? I daresay it would be immoral to think so.

Now while you would have given over the sigil in such circumstances--with a guild trying to dupe you with what basically amounts to a fixed game of dice--this is not necessarily the the morally superior action, so drop the pretentiousness, o.k.?

jdwoody · May 19, 2005, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramus

It would be a pretty shitty world if everyone thought that way, "Well, I shouldn't save that little girl from getting hit by a car. Because she wouldn't have saved me if she had the chance."

You would compare getting an item in a video game to a girl getting hit by a car? Does this mean if someone were to call you on the phone to scam you out of your home, your car and all your money you would let them because of your "morals"?

dansamy · May 19, 2005, 08:13 PM // 20:13

There's a lot of talk about morals & ethics for what amounts to nothing more than strings of '0' and '1'.

The computer already rolled for it. Unless it was predetermined that the entire group would roll after the drop, the computer's roll stands.